Open Letter To Non-Vegans Who “Love Animals”

Animal products, animal riding, animal racing, hunting, pet breeding, rodeos, circuses, and zoos all have one very important thing in common: The fact that they are UNNECESSARY to human existence.

They are also all directly responsible for by far the majority of needless global suffering.

The following letter is a confrontation and challenge to self-proclaimed “animal lovers” who are still selfishly paying the mentioned industries to provide products and services of needless suffering. [AKA, those who eat and wear animal products and/or participate in animal sport/entertainment sectors.]

~

To whom it may concern,

You DO NOT love animals.

What you MEANT to say was, “I love the company and comfort of having “pets”.

Constantly I hear and see people say this. “I love animals”, always coming from people who EAT and WEAR animals, who label themselves “animal lovers” while also participating in the massive holocaust of countless species of animals.

Read the following slowly and make sure to comprehend it fully, really soak it in and then ask yourself how it sits with your current lifestyle:

If you are reading this sentence in the year 2018, you have absolutely zero justification or excuse for still choosing to contribute to animal agriculture. There is an infinite plethora of free information about how unnecessary animal products are that is practically jumping off the internet in your face.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE.

If you KNOW that these products of suffering and killing are unnecessary, which as I said you should know (there’s no excuse not to), then there is absolutely no justifiable reason for you to still be contributing to the production of them.

With that said, I’m sure my more competent readers can see how extremely ironic (and hypocritical) it is when a person suggests they’re some sort of patron saint of animals while also funding the breeding, exploitation, suffering, and killing of them.

You can not be a hero or champion of someone who you are an active oppressor of.

You do not “love” the innocent who you sentence to slavery and death.

You do not love animals, you love the GOODS and SERVICES they provide you with.

You may have an affinity for dogs, cats, horses, birds, and all the other “pets” bred for the sake of selfish human enjoyment and comfort; but you do not love animals. Loving animals is not loving some species for selfish reasons. Loving animals is not about the self at all.

You ARE NOT an “animal lover” just because you adopted a dog or two from a shelter. You ARE NOT an “animal lover” just because you have nine friends and they’re all cats. You ARE NOT an “animal lover” just because you like to be around horses or watch birds or feed wildlife.

And you CAN NOT be an “animal lover” if you’re still exploiting and using them – ANY of them – for their bodies.

Odds are if you’re a human in this world that you aren’t an animal lover at all… Though you probably beg to differ, right?

53 comments

  1. Riding horses for pleasure is not contradictory. If you have ever kindly trained a dog, the same applies to horses. They love to work and find noticeable joy in being part of a team. They live about seven years in the wild, but with proper care and kindness they’ll live into their thirties. Many are pampered and spoiled like a house pet. If that is your style of horsemanship, there is nothing wrong about it.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Jim!

      So the issue with riding animals is not with the training, it is with the domestic breeding and using them for their bodies.

      Animals should not be bred or used, and they do not work for us.

      If you have the desire to rescue/adopt animals and to look after them until they die, that is one thing. But there is no excuse for getting on an animal and forcing it to work for you (even under the guise of “they love to work”, that is a justifying copout for our own selfish wants).

      Liked by 4 people

      • Maybe, but training impedes fight or flight and creates a less anxious and positive experience. Not a copout, but a overall improvement for the well being and stress of the animal. Initially these animals fear everything, run like hell and ask questions later. I think you may be missing the bug picture. With all “pets” the quality of their lives can be improved upon in a partnership with nature, which includes us people btw.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Well no, not maybe, definitely.
        What you need to understand is that domestic animals SHOULD NOT EXIST to begin with, and people choosing to buy them from breeders or to breed them is the root of the issue.
        I find it a bit amusing that you can’t find a better way to improve the quality of life of horses without getting on them and making them carry you. I also find it insulting that anyone would expect me to accept that as reality.
        The big picture is that they should not exist, and the fact that they do exist (because of selfish human intervention) should not condemn them to a life of slave work.
        I think the least you can do is be honest and just admit that you like to ride horses and that’s why you do it. No one rides animals for the animals’ well being, that is ludicrous.

        People LOVE to work, does that mean I can breed them and force them to work for my own pleasure? I’m gonna go with probably not.

        Liked by 3 people

      • You are rejecting any symbiotic relationship can exist on a personal level. I live in the middle of 100’s of acres of nature. I have deer and wild turkeys eating out of my hand and wintering on the property because they like us. If I spoke deer, I’m sure they would return a favor if I asked them. I think you need balance Amanda. City life has you skewed to great possibilities.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Symbiotic relationships in nature are not man made.
        I have several chickens who eat out of my hand, that doesn’t mean I have justification to use them for their bodies or labor.
        I’m not sure what the city life comment meant or why you think I have a city life, but this is not a personal thing about me.
        The “balance” thing is just another copout people constantly use to justify animal agriculture & products.
        Slave labor is not balance. And balance has nothing to do with this, this is about ethics.
        Balance is EVERYTHING. I’m all about it. But simply saying that someone needs balance does not discredit their argument.
        I am very serious about this and the balance thing is getting a bit frustrating.
        What’s next, child rape in balance? Balance means nothing to this conversation.

        Liked by 2 people

      • You started out telling me to admit I’m wrong. That always works. Maybe you could learn something about your subject matter before taking a hard line against any differing opinions. I agree with some of your premise, but you have errors your not accounting for.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Well actually I said to admit that you liking riding is the reason you’re for animal labor, not quite the same as admitting wrong but sure.

        I wonder what specifically you think I haven’t learned about that I need to in order to discuss this matter?

        I don’t think it’s fair to use the “you’re uneducated” copout to discredit someone’s argument; WHAT specifically do I need to learn ?

        Liked by 2 people

      • Let horses die out. That’s ridiculous. Modern horse predates humans. That’s what I’m specifically referring to. The oldest known dog breed is the Israel cow dog over 3000 years old in documents, but much older in reality. They should all die out too? You are judge and jury too I suppose?

        Liked by 1 person

      • I have never said to let the horse species die out…
        I think this is an issue of unclear communication.

        I am simply saying to stop breeding and allowing them to breed in our care, and yes to eventually allow the DOMESTIC animals to die out, so that only the ones in the wild are the ones who are left.

        Without us going out and capturing and breeding them, the natural population will balance out and we will no longer be responsible for members of other species.

        And in the meantime, stop making them work, because labor should require consent.

        It really is a very simple concept and the only people who would feel a sense of loss are the ones who are using domestic animals.

        Liked by 3 people

      • So we are to live in make believe houses, for the diaspora we displace by building our mud houses also have a right to their lives as much as us. We are here. We should be respectful and do our best, but ultimately with you fallacious reasoning we should all just kill ourselves. Being consistent with your view, there will be nowhere to live and nothing to eat. Where do you draw the line of reasonable?

        Liked by 1 person

      • So, where are all these unregulated natural horses going to live? Who’s going to cull the herds when they live along the highways for the best feed? Unfortunately we have a growing population problem. Your idea would be catastrophic to a hundred species at this point.

        Liked by 1 person

      • What do you mean “all these”? There wont be more than there already are.

        The population problem is with human overpopulation, not animals.

        Destroying someone’s habitat for yourself to live there does not justify capturing, breeding, or using them.

        The issue is with how we handle our own cultivation of our own lives, not with the existence of animals.

        How specifically would ending breeding and captivation cause catastrophy for a hundred species? (Or any species)

        Liked by 2 people

      • We can improve upon their natural abilities. Like a border collie who loves to herd, we can help the dog reach his full potential by putting him in a position to work, and love his work.

        Liked by 1 person

      • But both the horse and the dog should not exist to begin with, that is the issue. We need to stop breeding and let them die out. And in the meantime give them productive activities that don’t involve our own wants and demands.

        As I said in the piece, loving animals is NOT about the self at all. No animal should have to provide ANY service in order to be looked after, especially when it was bred into existence to begin with.

        Liked by 3 people

      • You’re overreaching. The genetic history of the horse and its evolution is one of the best understood of all animals. Horses were domesticated from naturally occurring species. Sure they’ve been altered just a bit in the past few hundred years, but generally what we see is what you find in the wild. Letting them die out is ridiculous

        Liked by 1 person

      • Are you suggesting that the majority of horses who are used for riding were not bred by people ?

        And even if breeding were not part of the equation at all, there is no justification for captivation and forced work.

        Letting domestic animals die out SOUNDS ridiculous to you because you can’t imagine your own life without what those animals provide for you.

        I have never seen a wild horse with another animal riding it’s back, so I’m not sure what you mean by “in the wild.”

        There is nothing natural about animal riding or owning pets. And it is not ridiculous to allow them to die out while looking after them in the meantime;

        What IS ridiculous is this circus of a world we have created in which we are owners and in charge of other species.

        Like I said the least you can do is just admit you like riding, I’d have a lot more respect for that.

        Liked by 3 people

      • I haven’t owned horses for about 10 years. But I know them, have trained them, have about 10,000 miles over the years. I know you’re wrong, and I don’t have a dog in this fight anymore. Kind symbiosis is very natural part of true horsemanship. You want a fight go talk to the rodeo people.

        Liked by 1 person

      • What specifically am I wrong about and how?

        Horsemanship itself is an unnatural anthropological thing so it doesn’t matter what “natural” parts there are to it, horsemanship should not exist.
        Horse lives belong to horses, people lives belong to people.

        And in between there are CERTAINLY acts of stewardship we should be doing, but riding is not one of them.

        The rodeo people are equally as guilty as the horse riding people, because the issue is the captivation and serving the human race.

        I’m curious as to why you think riding a horse for leisure or racing is not as unethical as riding a cow in a ring? They are both forced to perform in ways they should not have to.

        Liked by 2 people

  2. Hi Amanda, thanks for your strong and convincing voice — one that defends the inalienable rights of our fellow sentient beings to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. An ungodly number feel no complicit role in the mass slaughter of multiple trillion creatures forever and ever, Amen. Genesis 1:26 — “Then God said,
    Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the *livestock* and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
    That word “livestock” gives me pause. A mere 26 verses into the first of a, presumably, “good book.” Bring on the animal husbanders and see what happens when their number exceeds 7.5 billion. #SR15, whispers a grim warning.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. While I appreciate your views on humanity’s treatment of animals, and how it ties to your vegan lifestyle, I take a slightly more grounded approach to our relationship with other species. You can find the bulk of my arguments in the link below (it’s an old piece of mine); but the main gist of it is that the world we live in is a messy part of an even messier universe, and every organism is inevitably driven by the same self-centered urge to preserve its own existence at the expense of this world.
    https://eferet.wordpress.com/2018/07/30/to-be-vegan-or-not-to-be-vegan-is-that-even-a-question/

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks for your comment.

      Do you mind being specific about what approach you have that you think is more grounded than avoiding contributing to unnecessary suffering & killing (veganism)? Thanks

      Liked by 1 person

      • While I understand and respect the perceived altruistic motives behind veganism, for reasons I state in the article, I consider veganism to be just as hypocritical and laden with contradictions as any other belief system. I’d rather not reiterate the full length of my arguments against veganism here. I’ve already given them in the article anchored in my previous comment.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I wouldn’t even say veganism is altruistic at all because that usually implies there is some sacrifice or expense of the self.

        I think it’s only fair for you to explain why you think veganism is hypocritical and contradictory, since you just gave that hefty opinion in my comments. That’s a pretty bold claim to just drop in my comments and then peace out expecting myself and my readers to go spend time on your site.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Alright. Here we go then:

        Every living thing on Earth has to consume some other living thing in order to survive. Lions eat dear. Penguins eat fish. Seals eat penguins. Plants eat the rotting corpses of every living organism that is not them, including other plants. And as entire species of microorganisms, insects, animals and less palatable plants, are often displaced and/or completely wiped out in order to make way for the farmlands on which the “perfectly moral” diets of vegans are grown, vegans may not be quite the saints they privately and/or publicly pride themselves in being.

        Refusing to eat animals does not change how nature works. We are omnivores by virtue of our evolutionary history. Like gender roles, our diet is not some fad that got too popular; it is a matter of biological fact. We are not gorillas; we are not elephants; nor are we lions. We are homo sapiens. Full stop.

        We stomp over other living organisms every single day, no matter what our lifestyle choices. Veganism is at best the lesser of two evils. And like all belief systems, it cherry-picks convenient facts (such as the huge death tolls of “innocent” animals to sustain the “barbaric” diets of meat eaters, and the negative impact of the animal product industry on the environment) while ignoring more troublesome ones (such as the fact that we are omnivores period; the fact that no civilization in human history has ever subsisted on a vegan diet; and the fact that there are essential nutrients which simply cannot be absorbed or synthesized in the human body from eating plants alone—a fact that means vegans inevitably have to compensate for nutritional deficiencies with supplements). Like all beliefs systems, it promotes itself with emotionally-appealing, quasi-rational arguments and propaganda that are backed less by actual facts, than by existential fears and insecurities.

        Be at peace, and know that you are an animal. I hope my response has been satisfactory.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Thanks for your willingness to engage this discussion.
        Everything you’ve said I hear pretty commonly and nothing you’ve argued is a new argument to me so I’ll try to be patient; 

        Also, most importantly, will you please be specific about what “essential nutrients” you think “can’t be absorbed or synthesized from eating plants alone” ? Thanks.

        The issue with the “everything eats something” argument is that it doesn’t address the real issues. 

        Gorillas eat plants, lions eat animals – What is the difference? Anatomy. 

        We are not lions any more than we are gorillas, so to say that “lions rape!” is not a justification for rape – We know that rape is avoidable suffering, therefore it is unethical. 

        Now, as far as anatomical science goes, some animals are anatomically designed to consume animals, others are not.

        The teeth, jaw, hands/nails, saliva enzymes, intestine size, and digestive systems of humans are all that of an herbivore/frugivore, and our anatomical, biological engineering is one of the clearest ways to see how humans are not a species that should consume animal products.  

        It is a proven fact that Atherosclerosis can not exist in omnivorous species, and yet Atherosclerosis is the number one cause of the leading early killer of humans – heart disease.

        The point of veganism is to REDUCE UNECESSARY harm as much as possible.

        Obviously we can not entirely stop cutting trees down or growing and harvesting plants; The fact that we inevitably cause harm to the environment does not justify needlessly enslaving, breeding, using, exploiting, and killing animals.  
        The reason that using and killing animals intentionally is unethical is because it is unnecessary.

        Unnecessary suffering, while we can not completely eradicate it from existence, should be avoided and obviously not practiced. 

        Not only are animal products cruel and needless to us, they are EXTREMELY harmful in many, many ways. 

        Dairy (the breast milk of cows) is absolutely saturated with estrogen, progesterone, animal fat, pus, cholesterol, toxic, carcinogenic acids, blood cells and god knows what else is swimming around inside the infected tubes that drain the milk from the dirty nipples of all the cows before pooling it all together in a massive vat. 

        Eggs (the rotting periods of birds) fall out of the same hole that the chicken shits and urinates out of, not to mention they are absolutely filled to the brim with cholesterol, carcinogenic sex hormones, animal fat calories, and menstrual fluid.

        And as for meat, I mean do I really need to say anything about that shit? Everyone knows that meat is a Class 1 Carcinogen, right up there with cigarettes (or are those suddenly safe now too ?) Cholesterol, saturated animal fat, estrogen, progesterone, pus, stress/anxiety/fear hormones, blood, skin/flesh infections and sores, my god man the thought of your “food” is giving me nausea… 

        Liked by 2 people

      • I’ll give the main bits of this reply in the following format:

        * : .

        So here goes:

        *nutrients: Vitamins A, D, K2, and B12, and Iron.

        *anatomy/lions rape: I don’t consider needless analogies and conflations (lions rape=humans eat meat, because common factor is avoidable suffering) to be very useful tools in rational arguments, but that’s just my personal view. That aside, your point about anatomical differences between species is identical to mine. Yet you’ve somehow used it to refute a nonexistent argument on my part that the habits of other animals can be used to justify our own, when my actual argument was the precise opposite. Perhaps I just didn’t make it clear. My saying, for instance, that we’re not gorillas, was a refutation of the common vegan propaganda about the strength and health of herbivorous non-human animals, as a defense for the vegan lifestyle.

        *atherosclerosis: Let’s set aside the fact that the actual cause of atherosclerosis is not known, or that the recommended healthy diet for avoiding it includes several species of fish, or that the consumption or lack thereof of dairy products has zero effect on its development in the body (lest such facts, like all facts which challenge emotion-based belief systems, prove too troublesome). Let’s focus rather on your main point. Yes, anatomically, we are herbivores, and yes, only herbivores wind up with atherosclerosis. But if only nature had always been as sympathetic of the anatomy of an intelligent species it in reality could not have fewer fucks to give about, as said species is now. If only that species’ only hope for survival—in the absence of the Garden of Eden—was not to get nourishment wherever it could find it, and adapt, socially and genetically, to an omnivorous diet.

        *your attempt to put me off eggs, meat, and milk (I’m lactose intolerant btw) by using gross production details and exaggerated statements in a manner that practically screams out its sole intentions of inciting shock and guilt: Seriously, dear? Eggs are the rotting periods of birds—except of course when you’re staring doe-eyed at those rotting periods all grown up and singing in trees. Yeah, and meat is rotting flesh. Tell me something I don’t know.

        My views on our consumption of other animals are less “progressive” than they are realistic. I don’t believe in meeting impossible ideals halfway. We are not harmless beings and never will be. Our survival forbids it, just as everything else in conceivable existence forbids our survival. You can’t stand on the moral high ground of preserving the lives of a handful of species while your very existence is a fatal affront to billions of others. You can’t base your life on feelings of guilt and self-righteousness that are contradicted by that very life. And to those who seek safety in the crevices of the health argument for veganism, I say this:

        We die because we are mortal, and because our bodies—however high an artificial pedestal we put them on—are not ideal for supporting the consciousnesses they harbor (whatever your preferred definition of consciousness may be). Name one fucking non-mythical 300 year-old vegan, and I’m yours.

        Health and a fairly long life are a simple matter of personal hygiene, eating a balanced diet—and yes, that includes animal products—consuming extreme substances—like candy, cake, soda, alcohol, narcotics etc.—in mindful moderation, adopting a personal hobby that involves hauling ass every now and then—in plain English, doing exercise—and yes… luck. Sheer, dumb luck.

        Sorry, I know this is all a bit of a read, but I prefer to be as clear as possible. And in the absence of any more enlightening facts from your end (I liked the atherosclerosis-herbivore bit; I read the research) or… interesting assertions… I completely agree to disagree with you.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Are you suggesting that vitamins A, D, K2, and B12 can’t be gotten abundantly and affordably on a diet free of animal products?
        It isn’t clear what you meant by just listing the vitamins so you’ll have to elaborate if I’m to address that.

        I actually did not conflate lions raping with humans eating meat; I made the argument that just because “lions rape!” does not justify humans raping AND THAT SIMILARLY just because some species kill animals to eat them does not justify humans doing it. The difference between some animal species raping/killing and humans raping/killing animals is that the behavior is justifiable for them, for us it is not (again, because it requires unnecessary suffering and death to sentient beings).

        The argument was not against causing “avoidable” suffering, it was against choosing to cause UNNECESSARY suffering. For humans to kill animals for food is unjustified BECAUSE it is unnecessary for humans to do so.
        Predator and hunting behavior and killing for food is not part of the human’s nature (despite their highly evolved brains having convinced themselves that making weapons and having puny little “canines” makes their species a predator/meat eater).

        Veganism does not inherently involve emotional appeal, and is most certainly not an argument based on emotion. The logic of it stands on it’s own.

        Calling veganism an “emotional based belief system” Is like calling the position against child rape an emotionally based belief system, in that it disregards the fact that intentional, unnecessary practices of suffering involve victims.

        People calling a practice “unethical” does not make them emotionally driven, especially when there are valid arguments made of logic and steel that defend them in calling it unethical.

        Actually we definitely know that the biggest and in many cases sole cause of Atherosclerosis is most definitely cholesterol consumption, though saturated animal fat is cholesterol’s best buddy so the two are a power couple for clogging arteries (aka, Atherosclerosis).

        We know that the human body has no need to consume cholesterol, and that it makes 100% of the cholesterol it needs inside the body already.
        Cholesterol is in a way like saliva and stomach acid, in that it already exists inside our body for specific functions and we have no need to consume it from the body of other species.

        Actually, by definition, Atherosclerosis is “the build up of cholesterol, fats, and other substances in the artery walls”

        So the “we don’t know for sure that cholesterol causes Atherosclerosis” thing is difficult, if we’re going by the definition..

        The reason we still unfortunately find meat from sea animals in some popular diets for those with high cholesterol is because the amount of cholesterol in sea animals is less than that of most land animals (though only slightly and actually many breeds of fish really aren’t even lower in cholesterol than land animal meat, only a few are).

        Most people with cholesterol issues/weight issues/food addiction issues simply are not willing to stop eating meat, so rather than lose their clientele, many dieticians will cuck out and prescribe fish as a meeting place in the middle.

        “Adapting” to an “omnivorous diet” (I would not call battered meats and the breast milk of other species an omnivorous diet, but sure) has not made the human body more in need of animal products. Our species has absolutely no biological or anatomical need for meat, dairy, eggs, or honey; and so, because these products require unnecessary suffering and early death to produce, they are not an ethical way for us to get nourishment.

        Just because someone’s body has a vitamin that you’re too lazy to get any other (simple) way, does not justify killing that individual to eat their body.

        A piece of meat containing nutrients is not a reason to eat it any more than a piece of shit containing nutrients is, because we don’t need to eat it to get plenty of those nutrients to begin with.

        You said you don’t agree with meeting impossible ideals halfway, are you suggesting that veganism is an impossible ideal? And if so please explain how.

        “We are not harmless being and never will be” – Veganism does not claim that we should be or can be harmless. It claims that because we don’t need to use or kill animals for their bodies, we shouldn’t because it causes them to suffer and be killed early, both which they have a desire to avoid (which is no different than our own will to live).

        I have never claimed to personally stand on any “moral high ground”, nor dos veganism itself make that claim.
        Veganism is not an egotistical thing, it is about the victims of the practice of needless exploitation and killing.

        (And by the way, if saying “using and killing innocent individuals for food is unethical” is taking the moral high ground then fine, call me a moral high ground taker, but saying I’m claiming moral high ground is not arguing my actual position, it’s dismissing my actual argument altogether).

        “Feelings of guilt” should most certainly be present in those who knowingly choose to fund a holocaust for a cheeseburger and milkshake.

        Is “self righteous” how you would also describe those who speak out against child trafficking? Or does it only apply to those who condemn the unethical practices that YOU choose to take part in?

        People are sick, fat, and dying of heart disease on the standard American diet, and you’re asking veganism to prove it can keep people alive 300 years ?

        How about solving the obscenely expensive and tragic epidemic of greasy gluttonous fat fucks around every corner, can we start there?

        Animal products have no place in a “balanced diet” (according to the world’s largest diet organization, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, who openly advertise a vegan diet as not only safe but healthy for all people of all stages of life).

        Let me know if I missed anything.

        Like

      • Okay…

        1. I listed the vitamins because you required me to. To my knowledge, these vitamins, especially B12, cannot be naturally gotten from non-animal diets. In the absence of animal-based diets, they have to be gotten from dietary supplements, with which I am 99 percent certain you are already very familiar.

        2. Again — AGAIN — my argument is not — IS NOT — that the diets of other animals justifies our own. My argument is that the diets of US justifies our own.

        3. Regarding atherosclerosis, I was simply stating the current scientific consensus on the condition, disregarding the far more enticing, and profitable, pseudoscientific view of it. Your definition of atherosclerosis is true, but correlation does not imply causation.

        4. I’m not sure I see the logic behind your unwillingness to consider “battered meats and the beast milk of other species” part of an omnivorous diet, but okay.

        5. No, I am not suggesting that veganism is an impossible ideal. Veganism happens. I am saying that the ideal that veganism strives towards, that of “avoiding” “unnecessary” “suffering”, is impossible, and that the vegan’s pursuit of this ideal is hypocritical. Our very existence is an affront to the existence of every other living organism on the planet, no matter which of these living organisms must lose pieces of their bodies to our diets. An apple is, conceptually, no less the offspring of a living organism than an egg.

        6. Again — AGAIN — I do not — DO NOT — consider needless comparisons, analogies and conflations to be valid tools in rational arguments. I understand why you use the child trafficking example, I just… don’t understand why you use it.

        7. I guess the humor in my “300 year-old vegan” comment was just as lost on you as the otherwise very serious point I was trying to illustrate with it. Well… it was worth a try.

        As for all your other statements — the ones that make sense anyway — I will simply have to agree to disagree with you. I know where you’re coming from, and it is an emotional place. Wether or not you will admit it — whether or not you even know it yourself — is not my concern. You are coming from a place of compassion, guilt, self-reflection, and the age-old quest to be more than the animals we are. I understand that. I just don’t buy it.

        You’re an intelligent person. Of that, I have no doubt. But there is a place where facts end and biases buoyant on feelings begin. I challenge you to find that place, and know where your views actually lie relative to it. The truth about our nature, our diets and our mortality is not pretty. It’s dirty, it’s messy, and it’s uncomfortable. But it’s what we’ve got. We eat animals because that’s the hand our evolutionary history dealt us; we’re obese because we eat too much, not because of what we eat; and we die because we’re mortal. Past emotional BS, past ideals that tug at the heartstrings, past the delusion that our dietary choices are the key to immorality and existential transcendence, these are the dirty, messy, uncomfortable, raw facts. And in the face of these dirty, messy, uncomfortable, raw facts, I agree to disagree with you on veganism.

        All in all, this has been a very enlightening conversation, one I regret we could not have in person. It would have been far more interesting.

        Like

      • – Ok I’m not sure if you just Googled that but yes, I am aware of the B12 myth.
        B12 is made from bacteria. The reason that our plants no longer have bacteria on them is because of how purified and cleansed our soil, crops, and water are.
        Animals in animal agriculture are fed supplements and their breast milk is fortified with vitamins (like B12, D, Calcium) so that the resulting meat and dairy products contain them.
        Animal products are a middleman way to get your vitamins since you can get plant based fortified foods (I get more than 100% of all the vitamins you listed, including B12, with plant milks and nutritional yeast).
        Why add in all the toxins/carcinogens/dangers of meat and dairy when you can get everything you need & more without it?
        All needed vitamins and nutrients can easily be gotten on a balanced plant-based diet, and not just by fortified foods/supplements; Skipping out on cleaning your (organic) plants and eating them straight absolutely provides the bacteria needed for B12 creation in the body; most people are just fixated on cleaning their produce.

        It’s important to add to your vitamin point that MOST people are deficient in one thing or another; So the notion that people who drink breastmilk and eat chicken breasts somehow have their blood vitamin content covered better than the average vegan is absolutely silly.

        – MY argument is that our natural diet makes the needless using and killing of animals unethical; So it seems that our disagreement is coming from whether or not meat, breastmilk, and eggs are required;
        But I happen to KNOW that they are unnecessary for our optimal health, so the only conclusion for me would be that they are unethical. (The fact that they are unhealthy and dangerous only solidifies my argument that they are not human food.)

        – You are wrong on your claims about the current scientific consensus. (Unless you’re writing from 1965?)
        How on Earth could anyone still deny that consuming artery clogging substances causes conditions of clogged arteries? This is beyond science its common sense in this day and age.

        – Breast milk (and batter) are absent from the diet of adult members of all other species, so that’s probably where it comes from.
        But the estrogen, progesterone, carcinogens, saturated animal fat, and cholesterol also have a bit to do with it.

        – The definition of veganism is avoiding causing unnecessary harm & suffering WHERE POSSIBLE & PRACTICAL.
        Veganism does not claim that we can or should try to live without causing harm or suffering, because obviously that is not possible or practical.
        Avoiding stabbing pigs, breeding and stealing from chickens, and fondling cow breasts however, is possible and practical.

        – The reason I use child trafficking as an ethical equivalent to animal agriculture is that they are needlessly exploiting innocent victims for financial gain.

        – Emotions have never been part of my reasoning for quitting animal products. I value health, ethics, and the planet/environment ; Emotion does not fit in there.

        Nor do I feel guilty for anything; I think those who are knowingly taking part in these practices ARE guilty to whatever degree, but that is not the same as feeling guilt myself.

        Would you suggest that those speaking up for the victims of child rape are “coming from a place of emotion”?
        Of course not, because they are coming from a place of justice, not senseless empty emotion.

        – We are NOT obese because we eat too much. No one ever got fat eating too much salad.
        We are fat because we are eating the WRONG THINGS (and yes, too much of it).

        This conversation has replicated most of my more in depth debates on the topic, though I’ll say I appreciate your stance against emotional appeal. (I also appreciate not being name called which I’ve come to expect)

        Like

      • 1. Apologies for responding so late. Life stuff.

        2. I’m not sure exactly where I “name called” you—if that is indeed what you’re implying—and I don’t really have the time to scour through my previous comments, so apologies for wherever you believe I did so.

        3. Your point about vitamins, especially the thing about B12, is enlightening. I’ll definitely look more into it.

        4. Thank you for clarifying all the points of yours that I misunderstood.

        Like

      • I literally meant I appreciated not being name called bc it happens all the time, wasn’t sarcasm.
        The B12 thing is a really common one I hear from people all the time, it’s usually one of the first and only arguments they give.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Now, to clarify things on my end, my main issues with veganism (and I am speaking here in very general, very objective terms, based solely on observation; so please, please resist the temptation to get offended on some “That doesn’t apply to me” bs) are these:

        • Veganism is presented by its supporters at best as common sense, at worst, as sacred doctrine, while being based on an idealistic, urealistic view of the human species, one which seeks to somehow reverse thousands of years of social, cultural and genuine biological evolution.

        • Veganism, like all its fellow nodes in the great wellness network, markets itself as basically a cure for death, or at least the next best thing anyway, when given that vegans are just as mortal as their—I suppose by definition—more barbaric counterparts, it is clearly not.

        Thus while I agree with the adverse health effects of high-cholesterol diets; while I agree with how meticulously the deaths of animals we’ve been killing for centuries plucks at the heartstrings of the “woke”; while I agree with how unsustainable and environmentally-unfriendly the practices of the animal product industry are; and while I agree with many of your points; I also agree to disagree with veganism, based on the FACTS about my SPECIES that I KNOW, facts that may not be as magical or as hopeful or as in tune with existential insecurities as the facts that you know, but facts nonetheless.

        Okay?

        Like

      • – Explain what’s unrealistic about veganism?

        – How does “social” or “cultural” relate to what’s necessary and healthiest for the human diet?

        – What specifically about avoiding animal products do you think could possibly reverse biological evolution, and how? That makes zero sense to me.

        – As someone who understands what veganism is I can assure you veganism does not seek to reverse evolution, nor is there reason to believe that avoiding animal products will lead to future generations of un-evolved people – If w are in the future somehow less evolved, for any reason, it won’t be for that one.

        – I have never seen or heard of a reliable vegan doctor or nutritionist who markets veganism as a cure for death – That literally makes no sense, because there is no cure for death being that we all have to die.. No one is trying to say that veganism prevents death, that’s silly.

        – The fact that I know is that there is not a single thing we need that can’t be gotten in abundance on a balanced vegan diet. So why stab a pig every time you sit down to eat one meal? Seriously, they’re friendlier than dogs. That’s not heartstrings, that’s confronting cognitive bias with the uncomfortable truth.

        Like

      • Regarding your “what’s unrealistic about veganism” inquiry, I’ve made that point on at least all of my comments, and I’m far too bored with this particular conversation to do anything about the fact that it wasn’t clear to you. About the “social or cultural” thing, it DOESN’T have anything do with health. I’m not arguing from health there. I’m arguing from the obvious.

        And as for your other points… Hey, I’ve said my piece, right? We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. There is no double standard with my penchant for eating dead things. I don’t give a damn about the animals I eat outside of the capacity of their cooked carcasses to feed me, because they—along with everything else about nature—don’t give a damn about me. Animals that I don’t eat are either good company, good entertainment, good education, or some combination of these; and those that I do eat are—perhaps in addition, perhaps not in addition to the aforementioned—food. As long as it can be said with a fair amount of confidence that I will die one day, I’m not sure the ultimate relevance of my death being caused by some eventual heart attack or any of the other random stuff that can kill me beforehand. We don’t ultimately die because of our lifestyle choices; we ultimately die because we are genetically flawed and because the universe—in the words of a not-so-famous fictional character—is exceptionally vicious in its attitude to life.

        To use a description more in tune with the general mentality of your crowd, I am a heartless monster who thrives on the suffering and death of the “sweet”, “peaceful”, “innocent” “creatures” of this “wonderful”, “beautiful”, “bountiful” planet we are so “blessed” to be living on… and I like it. Sorry.

        Now I know how you’re going to interpret this, and I’m fine with it, but I will not be making any further contributions to this particular conversation. I’ve made my point, and understand yours; and I’m more than happy to engage you on other issues, in other comment sections, in the future.

        Like

      • Oops, text rendering issue, after “flowing format:” it’s

        *(keyword(s)/concept from particular statement of yours) : (my response to that statement)

        Liked by 1 person

  4. Great article. Very educational. I have the same mindset in regard to people who claim to love animals. I started reading your comments but it’s exhausting. I haven’t eaten meat in nearly 7 years. I have no nutritional deficiencies. I am healthier than ever, and my B12 is exceptional thanks to the lovely support of supplements. My vitamin A and iron levels are also perfect thanks to leafy greens, sweet potatoes, pumpkin, carrots, etc, (A) and legumes (iron). And thanks to the sun, my vitamin D is on point. Amazing how when you find the perfect vegan diet and balance, your body responds very well to it. My health has never been better! Thanks for spreading the message for those who have no voice!

    Liked by 3 people

  5. I came to your site because I saw a comment you made on a fools post about why he is going back to being a vegetarian,
    not a vegan. Mainly it was to “fit in” and have the convenience of more foods at his hands (blood too).

    you’re badass and took the words right out of my mouth girl. I freaking loved how you told him how it was, I read his post horrified at his thought process but your comments surely helped.
    bravo to you, glad I am not alone.

    Like

    • Thanks so much girl! I think it’s important to remain as positive as possible when trying to push veganism on people so they don’t think you have to be a negative Nancy to be a vegan. Sometimes it’s hard though haha so much misinformation floating around out there.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Sometimes it’s sooooo hard. It’s difficult to keep calm at times, especially when friends and family try to justify their choices but I use all my energy to keep cool and give information

        Like

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